Panel discussion organized by The Body on barebacking...

[rawTOP]

The Body organized a panel discussion the other day about barebacking. It starts out a little academic, but then there's a lot of good discussion. Here are some of the highlights...

I don't think we have a definitive answer to the proportion of gay men who have sex with men who definitely only have unprotected anal course, or primarily have unprotected anal intercourse. I mean, you look at studies; it ranges significantly.

I pulled some data up, and it ranges from 12 to about 46 percent. So it's a considerable range. It's specific to region of the country; the city, particularly; some differences in terms of race/ethnicity; differences in terms of age; differences in terms of HIV status. So I think that it's difficult to make a broad statement about the proportion of gay men that are partaking in unprotected anal intercourse, because it does vary significantly.

I gotta say I'm always disappointed at how few gay guys bareback. A lot of us do, but so many more "should" be... We've got out work cut out for us, I guess... I definitely don't believe the 12 percent figure - at least not in urban areas. In cities 46% sounds more like the real number - maybe a bit lower. What do you guys think is the real number?

we have almost entirely in the United States failed in prevention efforts to educate men in that process. We simply pathologized the behavior and prohibited intervention, and don't discuss it, and don't help them to think about it, help them to understand how they can make that determination.

I totally agree with them on that point! They've managed to make "safe sex" about as uncool and unhip as you could possibly imagine. Their message is still based on fear and much of the data they throw at you hasn't been relevant in over 15 years. That leaves the bareback community in the wonderful position of being the ones who are confidently living an uninhibited, fearless life.

Walt Odets: Let me add something there, just to tag something on there. There are people who, consciously or unconsciously, would like to acquire HIV. And I'm not talking about something pathological here. In a relationship where you have a so-called serodiscordant couple, this is a big rift between people. This is a big separation.
And there's only, in terms of HIV, one way to repair that rift. It's for them to get a partner to contract HIV, and to reconnect the relationship in that way. And I think that that's relatively common in relationships. Serodiscordant relationships are emotionally difficult, very often.


fogcityjohn: And so, Walt, you're saying, basically, that in a serodiscordant relationship, acquiring HIV may be seen as an expression of intimacy?


Walt Odets: Yes. And connection. And repair within the relationship. I've seen that in many couples.

They talked about a lot of the reasons why people bareback, but that one stood out. I know someone who pozzed his boyfriend, but haven't really heard about that many guys wanting to be poz to be more connected to their boyfriends. Interesting he said he's seen a fair amount of it.

Here's another interesting reason for barebacking...

Rashad Burgess: I would add two things. I mean, I'm coming from a little bit of a different angle than Walt. I think, when you look at the traumas that gay men often experience -- as children, as adolescents, as teenagers, and then as young adults -- oftentimes, it does lead to a yearning for intimacy that takes great precedence over the need for someone to prevent themselves from getting HIV.


And so, the rejection of family members, getting thrown out of your home, needing a place to stay ... I mean, the levels of stigma that just exist in many parts of our society will result in individuals having certain emotional needs that that level of intimacy, and intimacy with that level of risk, will oftentimes fill, for those individuals.

fogcityjohn: Very interesting. I'd like to go back to something you said, Rashad. Because you mentioned childhood trauma as a factor in this. And I was wondering, sort of a bit more generally: Is homophobia and the stigma that surrounds same-sex sexuality; is that something that plays a role in this? And if so, how?


Rashad Burgess: I would say it absolutely does -- particularly when you're looking at the risk-taking behaviors of individuals, looking at the risk-taking behaviors of young gay men. I mean, you have young gay men: many experience sexual molestation. Many experience mistreatment by their peers, or by their family members. And so the way in which many find intimacy, or find even security is through relationships through their partner relationships and/or relationships even with older men who, at times -- not exclusively, but at times -- there are certain risks that are taken because this person needs a place to stay, or this young person doesn't have any other resources of their own. And so I think stigma, homophobia, has an enormous role, as well as the impact it has on their own self-esteem, to even be willing to say, to negotiate, safety.


Walt Odets: I think what Rashad said is a big one. Jeff mentioned depression earlier on. But self-esteem, which is often connected with problems of depression; the self-esteem issue is a huge one.

Adolescents, gay adolescents, even now -- and this has lessened somewhat -- even now go through a feeling of being isolated, being alone, sometimes of being unique, and a distinct experience of being undesirable. And what they find out as they get older is that their body is very desirable to other people. And that is a very powerful thing. When someone is desiring you, it's a very difficult thing to kind of interrupt and start giving him instructions about how to desire you. And a condom would be one of those instructions. So I think, particularly in younger people, as Rashad said, that their self-esteem is a very, very important issue.

I remember being in a gay men's support group after coming out in college and I was rare in the group because I had not been molested as a kid - nearly all the guys had been molested as kids.

But then there's the issue of homophobia. Many times as gay men we have to strike out and make our own lives with no support from family. It can be a tough life and you have to make your own decisions. That leads us to live a more examined life than most straights. We question things - including what we're taught about safe sex. Because our lives are tough I think we value pleasure more than straight people - and we're willing to take risks to enjoy the moment...

It is interesting to think all of that may come subconsciously from abuse (physical or emotional) that we have to deal with.

One thing we have not talked about, that I think is ... that I've experienced many gay men in their 30s and 40s speaking about is issues around loneliness. I don't know if there are others that want to comment on that, but when many gay men wrestle with -- you know, we said depression -- but issues around just pure loneliness, and what does it mean to be an aging gay man in a culture that, in many ways, really values youth ... and if not in, necessarily, age, at least in appearance. And so I think that sometimes that does result in people taking risks that they maybe didn't, would not have taken, when they were younger and they were very desirable, but yet had high self-esteem and resources. And now that they have aged, and are aging, you know, are willing to take certain risks because they are dealing with issues around loneliness and the need to be desired.

I do think relationships can be valuable on many levels. Some people don't understand why I continue to have a largely non-sexual relationship with my boyfriend, but relationships aren't just about sex - in many ways they're about two compatible people being companions - which is why I think sluts should get into relationships with other sluts... It can actually be a good combination...

Jeffrey Parsons: And we hear the same thing from older gay men who are seroconverting, where they say, "Look, you can live 20, 30 years with HIV. I'm already in my 40s. Why isn't it OK for me to just kind of finally be able to relax about safer sex?"

Walt Odets: There's also just some exhaustion over a lifetime with dealing with problems like this. And I think we do see in older men -- you know, it's related to what Jeff and Rashad are saying -- but it's a kind of throwing in the towel on protecting oneself. It becomes exhausting. Twenty-five years, a quarter of a century, of trying to avoid an infection, is tiring.


fogcityjohn: I can certainly confirm that in my own case. I think that was certainly a part of my own ... one of the reasons I became infected. So I think that's a very, very important point.

Personally, I think that sorta sums up the major factors for older guys... Interesting the moderator converted when he was older.

We also have to recognize the fact that, in many areas of gay men, nearly half the population is already HIV positive. And so we have to be willing to look at, you know, how treatment, and the benefits of treatment, can actually play a role in HIV prevention. And so there are discussions going on now around community viral load, and actually what would it mean to actually really ensure that entire communities are maximizing the benefits of treatment, so that the overall viral load is reduced, if not undetectable?

This point is really important - look at what he's saying... He wants to medicate people who may not need meds personally to protect the people they have sex with. I think this is really dangerous on a policy level. It's one thing if a person wants to do it, but to expect someone to do something which could potentially hurt them in order to protect someone else is a bad idea in my opinion.

Well, I would just kind of sum up something that we've been talking about -- and that is that, for example, on an issue like gay marriage, which has been so much in the news -- every time a state passes a regulation against gay marriage, we're going to have more people infected with HIV. This goes back to the whole, broad wellbeing of the community. That kind of stuff is hateful and destructive. The association of HIV with black men involves some of the same kinds of issues.

We can't expect to abuse people and then have them take care of themselves. But we have a very broad societal problem in this country. And the HIV epidemic is, in part, simply an expression of that. And I think that that societal situation is something that has to change. It's inhumane and inexcusable that we're still talking about those kinds of issues.

Not sure I completely agree with that, but I think there's some truth in there somewhere.

In 1996, prevention completely collapsed. There was no interest in it at all. And we've been riding the protease inhibitors. They have, in fact, transformed the character of the epidemic. They are a huge improvement over what we had before '96. But they have stifled prevention. Prevention in the context of successful treatment can feel like raising doubt about the efficacy of the treatment, and pulling support away from men who are positive.

That is probably at the core of what's wrong with HIV prevention today... But there's even more to it... Bareback porn shows poz guys having great sex lives, looking awesome, etc. Then you know poz friends and you see for most guys it's a bit of a hassle, but it's far from the end of the world, and people do the risk vs. reward calculations in their head and then some decided to live out their fantasies - whether that's laying ass up in a bathhouse and taking loads, or just not saying 'no' to a hot guy who wants to fuck them raw...



You can read the entire transcript here - http://www.thebody.com/content/art57151.html?getPage=1

So what are your thoughts on their discussion? I think they had enough different perspectives that they got a lot of things right.

[drscorpio]

I don't know that it's a city phenomenon. I live in a small town in rural Louisiana. I have been involved in rubbered sex exactly once in the 10+ years since I started barebacking. The handful of times it has been discussed it has only been in the "oh you don't use them either thank god" kind of way.

[MascMountainMan]

Exhaustion is a good way to put it. Well that and the fact that sex with condoms (and lube...God how I hate the smell and feel and taste of lube!) really sucks compared with barebacking.

I came out in a major city around 1990. I didn't consciously recognize that I was gay until I was 19 or so (yeah I can be really dense) and I didn't have sex before then, other than a little minor fooling around with other kids. I certainly was never molested or abused, and my family has always been supportive.

However, I didn't know a lot about HIV and AIDS when I was coming to terms with being gay, but I sure did know that gay men were dropping like flies at the time and I was convinced that I wouldn't live to see my 30th birthday.

When I finally did start having sex with other guys (I'm such a geek...I actually met my first trick on a local gay BBS!), the safe sex thing was constantly pounded into my head.

Despite some token efforts to make putting on the condom part of the intimacy, the message was very much "Use a condom or die." And I think that (along with my previous misinformation about AIDS) ended up leading me into some very fucked up thinking around sex.

There were the inevitable slip-ups, followed by months of guilt and fear while frantically getting tested outside of the 90 day window to see if I had "dodged the bullet" (at that point, lacking better information, I assumed that HIV was transmitted extremely easily during sex). So I had this idea in the back of my head that being gay automatically led to HIV and consciously I assumed that getting drunk and having bareback sex once with a guy who had HIV guaranteed that I'd get HIV too.

After a bit, a sense of fatalism crept in. I figured that becoming infected at some point was pretty much unavoidable. And so I stopped trying to avoid it.

Discovering that I wasn't alone in preferring bareback sex to condoms helped things along immensely. I remember some of the earliest barebacking sites that showed up on the Internet in the '90s (which combined barebacking with "bugchasing" and "giftgiving"). I also remember finding guys on IRC into barebacking. And I definitely remember my first modern bareback porno (one of the early Michael McKey ones) and how hot that was. Once I knew I wasn't the only one who felt this way, that I wasn't totally nuts, that was pretty much the end of my condom use.

If I have to draw a parallel with why the media campaigns and the safe sex lessons did not work for me, I'd look at the War on Drugs advertising. Even today, anti-drug messaging invariably tries to scare you with the worst case scenario. Look at the meth campaigns. The problem is, people look around and look at the tweakers they know (or the tweakers they are)...the ones who haven't hit the worst case yet (and might never get that bad), that haven't lost their teeth or gotten arrested or lost their home or whatever, and they draw the logical conclusion that the drug advertising is a lie.

Don't get me wrong...meth is a terrible drug, and I have seen people go from a six figure income to homelessness on it, but that doesn't happen to everyone who uses it and if it does, it's usually after several years of abuse, which is not the message in the ads.

In the same way, every time I ended up barebacking and didn't get infected, that chipped away at the message that I had to use a condom every single time or face death. The reality for me was that I had pretty much given up on condom use eight years before I finally tested positive (granted, for five of those eight I was in the Army, so my whoring around was limited).

And now, the effectiveness of HAART has really undercut the safe sex message. I'm now approaching 40, ten years more than that young kid I used to be thought he'd ever have. My doctor tells me there's no reason I shouldn't live into my 70s. I appear to be perfectly healthy (if a bit overweight).

I'm also pretty open about my status (I believe in full disclosure for potential sex partners and my online profiles all state that I'm HIV+). So I'm sure that there are some guys who draw the conclusion that barebacking is OK even if you get HIV based on the simple fact that I exist, I'm having fun, having sex and apparently suffering few or no consequences.

[I'm cross-posting a slightly revised version of this in the comments over on The Body too]